The Mud Pit

racist–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
[Origin: 1865–70; < F racisme.

n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

racist
1932 as a noun, 1938 as an adjective, from race (n.2); racism is first attested 1936 (from Fr. racisme, 1935), originally in the context of Nazi theories. But they replaced earlier words, racialism (1907) and racialist (1917), both often used at first in a British or South African context.

racist

adjective
1. based on racial intolerance; “racist remarks”
2. discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion

noun
1. a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others

Synonym Collection v1.1
Main Entry: prejudice
Part of Speech: adjective
Synonyms: biased, bigoted, determined, doctrinaire, dogmatic, insular, insulated, jaundiced, myopic, narrow, narrow-minded, parochial, partial, partisan, prejudiced, prejudicial

Roget’s II: The New Thesaurus
Main Entry: prejudice
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
Synonyms: bigotry, intolerance

Ummm… Thanks, Lowell.

This post stemmed from a conversation on Republitarian with zen where he put forward his own definition of what a racist is and then a dictionary definition hoping to make the racist label stick to Myron. He then asked how I would define it.

Seems like a very good definition to me. I think the “r” word is being bandied about a little too much these days, in part as a weapon against any criticism leveled at someone or a group of people who also happen to be part of a minority group. Those that jump to the false conclusion that such criticism is based on race are, more often then not, hung up on it themselves…

I am throwing this out for discussion rather than as dogma. I think we are all racists, to a certain extent. I was born and raised in the North, which is supposedly free from racism. What a joke. Where I lived, all the white folk lived in the suburbs or the country, and what black folk we had lived in the inner city. And never the twain shall meet. My father, like Emmy’s, was a racist, although we didn’t have the KKK in our neck of the woods. His racism didn’t stick with me, not even a little.

But I was in Miami during the riots of the early 80s. Some white people were killed by blacks solely because they were white. Friends of mine were attacked in their car, and nearly killed, for being white and in the wrong location at the wrong time. Yes, that effected me, for years. I’m sure that effected me the same way that Republi-what’s his name from that other blog was effected by attacks by hispanics on whites.

I eventually moved to Virginia, the heart of the Old Confederacy. I thought everybody would be racist and hate damn Yankees. But the people of Virginny are no different than the people of my home state, or Florida, or North Carolina, or any other state that I’ve ever visited or lived.

We, as a nation, have made great strides, we have driven racism underground. We have made it not fashionable to be racist. We are trying. But we ain’t perfect yet. As a trial lawyer, I find that the most important question in determining which side will win and how much, is what are the respective races of each side, and what will be the most likely races of the majority of the jurors. Blacks in front of black jurors will fair much better, and much worse in front of white jurors. Same is true of whites, in the converse.

There is a place for the zens of the world, the self-appointed knights who ride around on white horses slaying the racists among us. He sees evidence of racism where it may not exist. But deep down, whether we know it or not, we are all racists. We have to admit it, and fight it, every day.

Before some liberal attacks me and says, SEE, I KNEW he was a racist, be advised: I have multiple black african Americans IN MY EXTENDED FAMILY. I have an “adopted” child who is part black living with me right now. Whom I love very much. That’s for “street cred” as kestrel calls it. I know racism when I see it. I have hispanic and oriental and Indian and black friends. Just calling people Nigger or Spic etc. doth not a racist make, no matter what zen thinks. [Is Jesse Jackson a racist who hates blacks, since he used the term Nigger?] It is actions that stems from beliefs or prejudices that makes one a racist. No matter how hard zen tries, he can’t change Republ, or any other of us, from really being racist. He can chase us under ground, and try to stop us from saying things that he thinks are racist. But he can’t change our hearts. Only we can do that. With help from Above.

Wow, HRR…well said.

Okay….so…..I am a Conservative Christian, very set in my beliefs and ways. I dont like people to try to change those things about me. But as a Conservative Christian I am condemned for being against homosexual activity. Now…if I meet a person that is like this, I will treat them as I treat everyone. But I do not in any way agree with them and if asked I will state my beliefs and views about this. As a matter of fact, I have before. That person knows how I feel.

Soooooooooo…..am I considered a racist? A liberal would say yes….a republican, probably no. What do ya’ll think? I dont like to be considered racist, but like HRR said…we all have a little in us. And personally I disagree with the majority of what liberals believe, so maybe I’m racist against liberals. I know I’ll never be one. LOL.

Wildkids,
Just being conservative, and a Christian to boot, means that you’re a racist, bigot, and the like. You didn’t get the memo???

LOL, no sorry Right Field….didn’t get that one.

erhaps I wasn’t on the memo list to which you two prescribe.

Please explain to me the distinction you make?

I thought Christian was it, was enough… What is a “conservative” Christian? Is that somehow better than just simply being a Christian? Do you get extra heaven points or some such bonus for being a conservative Christian?
Or are you mixing politics with religion here?
Please know this is not an attack, or as Megan would like to label “disingenuous”…
I am quite sincere in asking and in hoping to gain an understanding of your philosophy and ideology.

Please add a “P” to the “erhaps” above. I don’t know what happened to the pee.

Conservative Christian could be a way to describe a person’s political leanings as well as their spiritual identity.

Conservative does have more meanings than the political one. It can also mean: marked by or relating to traditional norms of taste, elegance, style, or manners. Or a person who is conservative in principles, actions, habits, etc.and traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness. In this sense it can be used to describe how one practices Christianity.

Both uses probably go hand in hand. Though not necessarily.

I agree with whackette’s take on the term, though more often then not it is used to describe one’s political leanings. And no one is saying its better than being just a Christian…its just a way of describing your particular belief system and how it may set you apart from other Christians.

As far as extra heaven points, I’m not sure…I suspect God has better things to do then sit there with a giant tote board tallying up everyone’s points, but who knows.

Growing up in Hazleton, PA, I didn’t know what racism was. I was born in Philly lived with my grandpa in center city Philly until I was 5 and always just thought people were different by color. My Catholic church always was colorful and the neighborhoods I lived in were colorful. When I joined the NAVY in ‘85, I found out what racism was. There were White groups, Black groups and Hispanic groups on the ship and the people of each group did not, for the most part, bother with the people of the other groups. I didn’t understand it until I saw how each group acts. I am not going to indulge any racial profiles, so don’t expect it.

Now that I am much older and been living here for 5 years, I see “The Good Ole Boy Network” as a more racial group than I had ever seen. Saying that, I also see WHY. With the many different groups that color the valley many wonderful shades, I have seen more ignorance towards Whites by Hispanics than any other group. I have friends of every color in the valley who have many different beliefs. Through my businesses, I have come to know what makes a good person and I appreciate the differences we have.

What I find incomprehensible is the way that Hispanics treat almost everyone else. They walk in front of cars, block isles and refuse to answer questions in English. If they can’t read or speak English, how can they survive? The majority of advertisements and ALL of the road signs are in English. Please don’t bullshit me and tell me they have translators. The crime rate in Hazleton is THE SOLE reason we left NE Pa. With the influx of the Hispanics into Hazleton and all of the surrounding areas, gun violence is up and tolerance is down. Mayor Barletta tried, in vain (thanks in a large part to the ACLU) to make it a safer place by making sure employers checked the legal status of it’s employees. Drugs, school fights and shooting, street gangs and shootings, rapes and murder are all up in the Greater Hazleton area. Dave Briggman knows all too well of Hazleton and how far down it has gone.

I DO NOT want this wonderful little town to become a Little Hazleton, but with so much love being spread for the Hispanics, they will soon come to realize that the town will tolerate all things that come with them…good and bad. No matter where you stand, the BAD ALWAYS outweighs the GOOD. One bullet to the head of a school student at a football game will be one bullet too many.

I have overspoke but HEY I have that right, hate me for it…if you must.

I wrote up a long post but it was rambling, so I’ll just go with this.

“Soooooooooo…..am I considered a racist? A liberal would say yes….a republican, probably no. What do ya’ll think? I dont like to be considered racist, but like HRR said…we all have a little in us. And personally I disagree with the majority of what liberals believe, so maybe I’m racist against liberals. I know I’ll never be one. LOL.”

I’m a liberal and no, I do not consider you to be a racist because you don’t agree with someone’s lifestyle. So, this liberal does not say yes.

Do you assume all gay men are child molesters and tell them so every chance you get? I assume not. But if you did, then that’s a problem. Stating your beliefs about something doesn’t necessarily make your racist. If you hate someone purely because they are a different color than you then that’s racist. My father hates anyone who is a different color than himself. He doesn’t believe races should intermarry and that if you are already of mixed race you should never marry so as not to muddle it up further. That’s racism. He’s entitled to feel that way and I’m entitled to disagree. He’s not entitled to burn crosses on their lawn and yell racial slurs at them any more than they are entitled to do so to him.

You can feel however you want and you can encourage others to feel the same. What you do with that feeling makes all the difference.

Its an ever changing fine line and frustrating for everyone.

Well put, Emmy. I guess what bugs me almost as much as a racist is someone like zen who is a self-appointed czar who runs around policing everybody else’s words and deeds, and declaring who is and isn’t a racist. I’m sure it comes from a well-meaning but over-zealous spirit, but it sure comes off as obnoxious to me. Perhaps if I actually knew any people who were such admitted racists, as your father apparently is, then I wouldn’t feel this way, but I don’t know any. I guess I just don’t believe it is that widespread of a problem in real life as others do. The surge is working! We are winning the war on racism.

Ooops. That was me. I forgot to change back to my normal name.

HRR why such a different tone on this blog? I much prefer you here.

I think we are winning the war on racism, but sadly people in my father’s category are far more widespread than one would think. There numbers are still very large.

Its very frustrating to know someone of mixed race who you feel deserves every happiness because of the kind of person they are and have an argument with someone who has never met them but says that they have no right to get married because they are mixed and they don’t need to be spreading that around.

Howdy Everyone,

Megan and Right Field, have it correct. And both apply to me and my family. Gosh, it’s like ya’ll were in my head. LOL. I was raised in a strict Conservation Christian family. And I’ve never let go of those values….now I’m raising my kids the same way. If they chose in their adult lifes to change that….that’s their choice.

Lowell there are also liberal Christians. But I’ll let Emmy explain that more. And thanks for your comments Emmy, well put. I dont judge people by their color, nationality (sp), money/no money or anything like that. I learn about each person I meet and get to know them. Gosh, I think I said this on my blog. LOL.

Frankie Boy, very interesting comments and so true. Anyway, thanks for all ya’lls comments.

What galls me about this whole thing is how freely the label is being thrown around and how it mostly goes one way. Zen made up a definition to suit his needs and then didn’t want it applied to others the same way he applied it to Myron. All he managed to do was show that Myron is apparently racist against people that aren’t black women. Oh, and he’s also racist against Mennonites and Amish. Next thing you know, he’ll be burning a cross in his own front yard. If mentioning someone’s race makes you racist then I guess there will be a whole bunch of Democrats either voting republican or staying home this fall.

I pointed out that not being eligible for things doesn’t keep illegals from doing those things and I get bible verses thrown at me. Huh?

Things have gotten so bad you can’t say tar baby or black hole, and while we laugh about how ridicules that is the same sort of things are happening around us. Make a joke that plays on a racial stereotype and you’re a racist. Mention someone’s race and your a racist. Compliment a race and your a racist. Think people should follow laws and your a racist in need of bible verses.

How many times do we hear about ignorant rednecks or redneck jokes? Are those people racists too?

Nobody is attacking me here. I’m considered a nice guy by those who know me. Unless I get attacked, as so often happens on Republitarian. I know, you prolly think it is the other way around, that I attack everybody else, but I don’t see it t hat way. And if you haven’t noticed, I don’t take kindly to personal attacks of me or people I care about.

p.s. I KNOW you haven’t asked, but I think you need to forgive your father and maintain an acquaintance. You only get one father in life. And perhaps you’ll rub off on him. You KNOW his views won’t affect you.

I agree Megan.

My son wears those redneck shirts, he runs in demolition derbies (as does all the men in our family) and wears jeans and boots….he gets called a redneck….along w/racist. I know he’s not a racist. He has friends of different color and nationality (sp). He doesn’t mind being called a redneck (because he is) but he hates being called a racist. Furthermore, my Grandma was part Indian. My husband has a few hispanic friends, they’re some of his closest friends.

Other’s cant judge my son by what he wears or by our family. But they do. Around here it’s not as bad, because alot of people wear those shirts and dress like that. But if we go away….good grief.

HRR my issues with my father started long before his racism and I have ZERO interest in ever seeing him again. I have another father figure in my life and I’m happy with that. My real father was never a father and never will be. He’s far too self absorbed.

Megan, I’m always going to think of Tar Baby as a racist term. I’ve never heard it used in any other way.

I have no idea what is in Myron’s heart. He’s said things in my presence about other groups of people that I find offensive. The things he writes on his blog make him sound far worse than I imagine he is. Obviously he’s fine with that. I don’t think Zen’s interpretation was a stretch if you go by the things written on the blog.

Whackette, you’re absolutely right. It IS thrown around with abandon, without any respect for whether or not it should be. The pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction, to the point where certain people cannot say anything or hold certain beliefs. Criticism of some people breaking the law, even if you point out their ethnicity, is not racist…and disagreeing with homosexuality doesn’t automatically make someone a bigot, particularly when those beliefs are based on deeply-held religious convictions.

And HRR…your last comment regarding forgiveness. You don’t seem like the “turn the other cheek type”!!!

Emmy, “tar baby” originated from the old Uncle Remus tail, I believe [this is recalling grade school too many years ago], and “Please don’t throw me into that brier patch.” I beleive it was a rabbit who thought it was a human, but the baby was made of tar. When the rabbit, or whatever it was, hit the “tar baby”, he became stuck and was caught in the tar. From that story it came to mean any situation that was going to cause somebody to become trapped or ensnared by a sticky situation. IT HAS ZERO TO DO WITH RACISM.

I know that HRR. Doesn’t mean I’ll ever see it that way. I’ve never heard it (and I have heard it) used in any way other than in a negative way (outside of the story). Its offensive to others, I’d never use it on purpose. Words induce feelings. I don’t like the feeling I get when I hear it. I have no reason to use it. I’m not going to call someone racist if they use it in the proper way, but I’m not going to like hearing it.

RF, you are correct, I don’t believe in “turning the other cheek”, but I am also a real huge family man, and think that the relationship between a father and daughter is worth making an exception to my general rule.

Rudder is right on Tar Baby. I remember listen to a Disney record of it as a child. Never crossed my mind that it was racist until recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30VGNiqUD2c

HRR,

I was just kidding around. I know when it comes to family exceptions can be made, and should be in some cases…in other cases, though, there are irreconcilable differences which simply prevent it. Sometimes the biological bond just isn’t enough…

Megan,
I’ve told you three times now that the definition I gave you is from the New Oxford American Dictionary. What’s sad is that you repeatedly accuse me of “making it up.”
Look I’ll admit that I don’t know Myron’s heart. Is he a racist? He knows the truth. But the impression he gives and the way he’s often called people “niggers” “sand niggers” and the like, is acting racist. If there’s a difference there, I don’t know what it is.

For fucksake, your definition “A person who believes that people are either inferior or superior based on nothing more than the color of their skin or ethnic background.” Fits exactly what Myron did by “digging black chicks that can sing.” But, oh no…I’m the one making something up.

You accuse me of wiggling out of the discussion, and not proving anything to you. Yet it’s you that willfully ignore points like that it’s not my definition, and continue to pick it apart when you disagree, and push it on me.

I’m so through wasting time with people that don’t listen, and don’t have the courtesy, or respect to tell the truth, or debate in a civil tone. I’m sure the insults will continue to reign down upon my name. But guess what. I don’t care. Enjoy yourselves. I’m done.

1. This is your made up definition. “He’s using their appearance (their race) as an issue. This by any definition is racism.”

2. I asked where you were getting that definition and then you came up with a dictionary definition that didn’t say that. Hence you made the definition up.

“New Oxford American Dictionary

racism |?r??siz?m|
noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
• prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief : a program to combat racism.
DERIVATIVES
racist |?re?s1st| noun & adjective”

3.When asked to demonstrate why this applied to Myron when he was talking about Mexicans you jumped around and had to resort to a compliment to black women and a joke about his own religious heritage. Maybe Myron is a racist, but you certainly didn’t define it well or explain it well.

4. Now you don’t like facing the hole you have dug yourself into and you stomp off in a huff. I have grown weary of people that are nice and civil until I don’t agree with them and then accuse me of not listening, twisting things, or taking an uncivil tone. I’m not the one using a variation of the F word.

5. According to your original definition (see point 1)Barack Obama is also a racist.

6. If we go by your dictionary definition then I still would like to know what characteristics or abilities he has attributed to ALL Mexicans. After all, the conversation about Mexicans is what sparked this racist hysteria. Forget about the black women singing. That fits. You got him. He’s racist against white women. Point for you.

I have found that people often confuse racism with nationalism, regionalism and ethnocentrism. My opinion is that this stems from not knowing what the words mean and being to hasty in following the media labels which are blared at us 24/7.

I have found that those who cry racism the most, tend to be the ones who exhibit the most racist behavior. However, racism exists in everyone in some form no matter how minor.

Excellent points, Draegn.

Well I am here to say that Zen does not exhibit the most racist behavior–just for the record.

I took a diversity class in grad school which was life changing for me. To me, the definition of racism is believing your race is superior than others (i.e. white people are smarter, work harder, etc… than black people). Also, that there is some system in place oppresses other races.

Do you believe that white people in this country are born privileged?

Do you truly believe that other races have the same exact opportunity for success?

Do you find yourself feeling uncomfortable walking towards a large black man on the street? Does this same amount of discomfort exist when you meet a white man? How about a group of 3 large black men?

Do you laugh or tell racist jokes? Do you speak up if someone else does?

I suppose that is enough questions for now. I do think that many people in this country are raised to believe that white people are superior. That doesn’t mean that we can’t become more aware of other ethnicities and cultures, nor does it mean that we cannot work through our own prejudices. Because we all have them, even me. Yes HRR I admit that I have racist thoughts, but then I question where those come from and work through them. I find it scary when people vehemently deny they even have them.

It’s interesting to me that people think that racism is not a huge issue for our country. I very strongly disagree. We have made progress but we are no where near healed. All I have to do is read the paper and editorials to see racisms ugly face. And yes, I have been sickened by some of the racist comments found on Republitarian.

I find myself uncomfortable walking towards any man of any race/color on the street. Because a man can be a threat to a woman. Does that make me racist towards men? Maybe so, but my kids and my safety is more important to me than hurting someones feelings or even being called racist. I dont consider myself racist, but I guess some point in time I may be. Who knows, it all depends on everyone’s definition. If I say “I saw a black girl walking alone down the street last night by herself”…am I being racist because I pointed out that she was black? I dont think so, cause if she was white…I would have said white. Maybe because I said she was a women, I’m racist.

I just think this is all a personal conviction. I treat everyone the same, but no I dont want to be alone on a street with ANY MAN that I dont know.

I dont think anyone color/race has more privilege than the other. Everyone makes their life out to be how they want. They can be a victim or they can be a victor…I choose the latter. I’m a white women with kids…maybe I dont get certain things because I white and/or woman. But I dont sit around crying out “they’re racist because I’m a white women with kids”…some people of ALL race/color whine if they dont get a job, promotion, loan or whatever and blame everyone because they’re not a certain color or race. Hey guess what….get over it, maybe someone of the same race and color was better qualified.

Please know, I am NOT saying this isn’t a problem because it most certainly is. I’m just tired of people blaming their lack of qualifications on racial stuff.

WK7: You ask,

“Does that make me racist towards men?”

No it doesn’t. You’re being careful, as well you should. You owe that to both yourself and your family. Your survival and wellbeing are important.

People are confusing the concept of racism all over the place. Some are doing so because they really don’t understand what racism is, and some are doing it purposefully, to confuse the issue in people’s minds.

If you scroll all the way back to the top, I copied dictionary definitions of “racism”, and then for further clarification I included synonyms for “prejudice”…

I fully understand that this thread was begun in response to a particular argument stemming from a specific event, but it does open up a very important issue for discussion, and I greatly appreciate Megan’s having done so on her blog.

I think we could possibly all agree that we had hope, that racism shouldn’t play so great a role in 2008, in the United States of America.

The Obama candidacy, and the fact that he is now given at least even odds of becoming the next President, has brought to the surface an issue that has been simmering and sometimes boiling since humans were created.
And yes, I said created. But that is an argument for another day…

But back to your question:
“Does that make me racist towards men?”

No, it does not. You can’t be “racist” based on a person’s gender.

Imagine you were a bank loan officer, and were faced with two couples applying for a loan to purchase a car or a home, with the couples being each of differing races, if you showed preferential treatment to one couple based solely on race; there we have a form of racism.

If you find yourself in a grocery store, and you observe someone of a particular racial heritage shopping for food, and in your imagination you conjure up how this person is probably living in a certain way and taking advantage of the system in a certain way, and costing you and your children your fair shot at living, all of which is assumption based on again, their visible racial heritage, then this also is a form of racism.

To say racism is the deciding issue of the day in our society is on one side of a coin, the other side of which claims that racism no longer affects how our society functions.

Both are gross and inaccurate generalizations.
And like REM I’ve said enough, I’ve said too much…

Have a Blessed Day.

Thanks Lowell, that’s very well put!!

Do you believe that white people in this country are born privileged? NO

Do you truly believe that other races have the same exact opportunity for success? That depends somewhat on how you define success. For the most part yes. However, I do believe that discrimination occurs.

Do you find yourself feeling uncomfortable walking towards a large black man on the street? Does this same amount of discomfort exist when you meet a white man? How about a group of 3 large black men? This depends on the setting and the demeanor of the person. If it’s on a dark deserted street or the person is dressed like a hoodlum, I don’t care what color the skin is. I would be uncomfortable.

Do you laugh or tell racist jokes? Do you speak up if someone else does? On occasion depending on what you call a racist joke, usually because it plays so well on a stereotype. And as a wise man once said, “stereotypes exist for a reason.” I have spoken up about racist jokes before.

From Lowell…“I think we could possibly all agree that we had hope, that racism shouldn’t play so great a role in 2008, in the United States of America.

I agree. Though we may disagree about who is giving it such a large roll. It has been made an issue and I’m glad that, to my knowledge, it isn’t the Republican candidate.Who would have thought that the Democratic nominee would show the most racist behavior. I’ll be glad when it is equally deplorable no matter what group it is against.

I have a young (17, mixed race but she looks black) black person living with my family. I asked her if she ever felt that she was discriminated against because of her race. She said no. We are buddies, and she would have told me if it was true. Now, either she is naive, and just hasn’t picked up on any overt racism, or the Times They Are a Changin. I hope it is the latter, and that it is because we have made great strides in race relations in the past few decades.

Ironically, her mother didn’t want her to move up here to live with us (she lived in a big city in FL) because her pastor, who is white, said that Virginia is a racist state, and she would be victimized by racists. She’s been here two years, thank you very much you idiot whoever you are.

I have to say HRR…Virginia is more of a racist state than others, but only in some parts. I dont agree with it….just stating my opinion. It sounds like she’s leading a good life now. Keep up the good work.

I’ve lived in a northern state, and three southern states. I did not see any difference. Course, I don’t know many southern good ole boys, whom are supposedly stereo-typically racist. The northern state was probably worse for racism, but perhaps that was because I knew many good ole boys up there. My guess is that the northern states just hide it better, or lie about it alot.

I figured the south was more racist. And yes, everyone I’m stereotiping (sp) the south. LOL